Marvin Shilmer

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Posts by Marvin Shilmer

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  739

  250,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have died refusing blood

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  80+ branch davidian cult members died in waco, texas.

  250,000+ #jehovahswitnesses have died refusing blood.

  stop this #cult!

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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “And that would serve as a good example of why Dr Beliaev is held to the same standards of every other medical researcher, and would need to prove his assertions with an actual study that tests that hypothesis, and not just rely "on a hunch" (i.e. opined, AKA a hypothesis). Science doesn't get anywhere by relying on that kind of 'scientific method'.

  “It's simply the unsupported opinion of one doctor in NZ, who MAY or MAY NOT be correct (here's where someone cues the JWs to march out their MDs to claim Beliaev's opinion is all wet, based on THEIR opinions. Pointless.....).

  “At the end of the day, Beliaev and anyone who understands the scientific method knows the ONLY WAY to solve such battling unsupported hypotheses is to design a study that reliably provides an answer, and until then, it's only one person's opinion vs another's.”

  Adamah,

  What I’ve shared is opinion based on a particular set of data and assumptions. No one has suggested otherwise. It’s there for every person to make of what they will. But at least it’s there to agree or disagree with, which means it gives people something to think about in the context of preventable deaths.

  So what’s your point, if you have one?

  If your point is that my extrapolation is opinion as said above then you have said nothing that is not self-evident.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  78

  A child that DIDN'T want to die ... a blood experience you won't read in Awake! or on JW.ORG

  by wannabefree in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.

  she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.

  anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .

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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “Sigh, I didn't think I needed to be so pendantic as to make clear that I was refering to rulings or defendable-in-court.”

  Simon,

  What you said was clear enough, and what you cite above is included in the scope my comments.

  Doctors make legal decisions all the time, including decisions about how and when to treat a patient that is to them a “mature minor”. They make these based on their own experience and training, or based on hospital policies handed down by administration. The whole idea is to make decisions that are, of course, defendable in court.

  If I’ve misunderstood you please explain.

  Marvin Shilmer
• 
  739

  250,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have died refusing blood

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  80+ branch davidian cult members died in waco, texas.

  250,000+ #jehovahswitnesses have died refusing blood.

  stop this #cult!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  -

  Good underlining. You get an 'i'.

  Next week, work on gestures.

  Simon,

  Is that intended as insult?

  If you don’t want us participants to use the underlining feature then my recommendation is to get rid of it. I assume you want us to use it as each determines it appropriate. Right?

  When I respond to participants who in my estimation need help to distinguish between what’s said versus what’s meant by something said, I’m compelled to use the tools you provide to help these individuals read what’s actually said rather reading their own meaning into the thing said.

  Any questions?

  Marvin Shilmer
• 
  739

  250,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have died refusing blood

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  80+ branch davidian cult members died in waco, texas.

  250,000+ #jehovahswitnesses have died refusing blood.

  stop this #cult!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  -

  “Second, you are wrong. They do say different things to internal members and external parties on all sorts of things including blood.”

  If you read closely you’ll not find where I’ve disagreed with your statement above. But you’ll have to read what I’ve written for what it says at face value.

  My earlier point is that Watchtower tells THE SAME lie when it comes to deaths due to blood refusal. The lie is to suggest that it occurs rarely or infrequently.

  This is not saying that Watchtower does not AT ALL admit that some JWs have died the result of refusing blood. Watchtower makes this admission to secular medical authorities AND to JWs. I’ve said as much in so many words. Yet for whatever reason you don’t see this in things I’ve said here. Hence your rude remarks to me!!!

  On another note, and about my estimate of 50,000 deaths due to JWs refusing blood between 1961 and 2011, a colleague having dialogue recently with Dr. Beliaev shared that Dr. Beliaev had read this estimate and its bases and opined that the figure 50,000 was “a pretty conservative estimate”.

  Marvin Shilmer
• 
  78

  A child that DIDN'T want to die ... a blood experience you won't read in Awake! or on JW.ORG

  by wannabefree in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.

  she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.

  anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .

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  Marvin Shilmer

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  Adamah,

  I’m curious about your background, being a retired physician and all. I’ve sent you a private message.

  Marvin
• 
  78

  A child that DIDN'T want to die ... a blood experience you won't read in Awake! or on JW.ORG

  by wannabefree in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.

  she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.

  anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .

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  Marvin Shilmer

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  Justitia Themis,

  Based on things you’ve revealed during this discussion and a little checking around on my own, I’ve learned some very impressive things of your person and work.

  I want to say a big “Thanks!!!” for all your hard work.

  If there is any way I can ever be of help please don’t hesitate to contact me.

  Thanks again!

  Marvin Shilmer
• 
  78

  A child that DIDN'T want to die ... a blood experience you won't read in Awake! or on JW.ORG

  by wannabefree in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.

  she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.

  anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .

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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “Yes, the video makes it clear that this is what happened. A reason why medical staff should know clearly that they do NOT have the right to make legal decisions. They should keep their focus on providing healthcare only and pass the legalities onto others as soon as they come up, hopefully where they are more familiar with practices and the arguments that will be used.”

  By far, most legal decisions are made by persons untrained in law. There’s no way around it. We have black-letter law, and we have common law. The citizenry is held accountable by both yet is trained in neither. We can’t carry lawyers around in our pocket to make all the decisions we need to make on a routine basis. For many hospitals it’s become routine whether they can or should honor the request of a youth to refuse or have treatment under a theory of “mature minor”.

  So what do doctors and hospital administrators do? They attend educational events. They hire attorneys to train medical staff on how to make better decisions with legal consequences. They have their own in-house experience to draw from, or personal experience. But ultimately medical clinicians make most decisions themselves.

  Probably the decision that most often ends up before a judge is not whether to give or refrain from giving blood to a minor based on a theory of “mature minor” but, rather, when a decision is made by medical staff that a court order is necessary. Then hospital administration appeals to the local court system to render a decision. But one way or another the decision to appeal to a local judiciary was made by a legal layperson, whether of hospital staff or a patient.

  Marvin Shilmer
• 
  78

  A child that DIDN'T want to die ... a blood experience you won't read in Awake! or on JW.ORG

  by wannabefree in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.

  she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.

  anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .

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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “I find it incredible that in a sue-for-anything country like the US that this would play out.”

  Simon,

  The world of legalism and medicine are systems. Systems can be worked. This is what Watchtower does. It has learned these systems and works them to the hilt.

  A primary tool it uses with pediatric patients is to coach them to give impression of being little adults. It’s a god-damned crying shame. But it happens.

  Marvin Shilmer
• 
  78

  A child that DIDN'T want to die ... a blood experience you won't read in Awake! or on JW.ORG

  by wannabefree in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.

  she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.

  anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .

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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “I see as much apathy in ex-JWs who fail to admit any responsibility for having once supported the WTBTS, being paralyzed and unable to claim the moral high-ground in a manner that's likely to be effective in breaking the cycle, instead of merely being content to engage in ineffective hyperbole and repeating, "someone should DO something!" without having any actual useful suggestions in order to break the destructive cycle.”

  Adamah,

  That notion resonates with me. It shames me that in years long gone by I didn’t do more than I did, and that I didn’t make it my business to learn more about what was happening and why more aggressively than I did.

  I also agree that engaging in “Someone should do something!” without doing something ourselves is a useless waste of everyone’s time.

  Understanding Watchtower’s blood doctrine is a tall order for the average person. If the subject is important to us, and if we think it should either be eradicated or otherwise overcome then failing to spend the necessary time and resources to understand this monster is nothing but an excuse. Either we do it or we don’t. That’s the personal choice each has.

  Then it’s a matter of putting our resources where our mouth is.

  Marvin Shilmer
• 
  78

  A child that DIDN'T want to die ... a blood experience you won't read in Awake! or on JW.ORG

  by wannabefree in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.

  she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.

  anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .

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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “An ad hominem is an ad hominem…”

  Adamah,

  True.

  But a skeptical opinion based on extrapersonal evidence is not ad hominem.

  Ad hominem is an attempt to reject a view (or have it rejected) because of the person making it, usually involving something negative about the individual.

  Guess what? That’s not what I did.

  I rejected what you said of my statement because I did not assert as you claimed.

  Learn about it.

  The fact is that over and over again the Watchtower organization has attempted to use doctors by having parents and/or elders coach sick children to sound and act as little adults. Apparently you don’t like this being advertised.

  Marvin Shilmer